HTML for Module Developers - A Discussion

Currently a lot of you developers out there start working with all the fine stuff in .8 and we already have a bunch of .8-only modules. Very nice modules! But there are two things that makes webmaster's life with your modules hard: You HTML and you CSS.

From the modules I have tested I see that most of you really try to stay up to date with current ideas about good HTML. I haven't seen any layout tables for months. Many module devs even try to put semantics into their work.

No matter there are some things, I'd like to point out and discuss with you.

"Divitis" is the name of a HTML coding style that puts every possible Tag into div-Tags. I personally only use divs for the general positioning of my layout: header, content, left block, right blocks, footer. Anything else doesn't need divs around it. You can position every other tag in any way you can position and style divs.
Some of you use a separate class or ID for every single piece of content. This makes the code seems bloated and hard to maintain. Please use only as few classes as possible.
Some modules have a very great design but it doesn't really adjust to my own themes. Please don't define the style of h-tags, p, ul, ol ASO. in terms of color, line-height or font-size and style. I think most webmasters already have a site wide definition for these tags and want all h2-tags look the same all over the site.
Use the CSS inheritence system for a slim style sheet: In .8 everything your module produces is put into a div:
Code
```
<div id="pn-maincontent" class="pn-module-YOUMODULE">
```
So if you want to style you module use e.g.:
Code
```
#pn-maincontent.pn-module-YOUMODULE * h2 {} 
```
to make every h2 look the same in your module.
Please don't use h1 - h1 is the site's name.

These are no official guidelines - only my personal opinion which I wanted to discuss, in order to develop a list of tips for module developers. Please discuss here.

Posted by kaffeeringe.de on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 Comments (22) · 1966 Reads

22 Comments so far

(Latest comments )

1. JørnWildt wrote on Nov 22, 2007 at 06:29 AM

QuotePlease don't use h1 - h1 is the site's name.

But that's what the core "Pages" module does ...

2. mumuri wrote on Nov 22, 2007 at 01:02 PM

i don't agree with the h1 law, too

Indeed, in SEO, this tags is very important, and it can be interesting to personnalize it for every pages.

3. chaKal wrote on Nov 22, 2007 at 08:09 PM

+1

h1 is not the site name but the top level heading of the page(related to the page content):
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/Use_h1_for_Title

chaK!

4. czardogs wrote on Nov 22, 2007 at 08:30 PM

Agreed! Free the h1! Far too important to restrict.

5. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 08:57 AM

So which tag do you use for the page name?

on SEO: All this SEO stuff is purely speculative: Nobody knows exactly what Google and all the other search engines really do. I mean: SEO means that you optimize your page for certain keywords and these keywords should be recognisable as most important. If you mark each and every headline h1 you have no positive effect for the search enginge - which of the words are important? But if you mark the page title h1 and it's not only "onokoli.com" but "onokoli.com - The Shop your Dog would choose" you have the keywords "dogs" and "shop" marked - which is pretty important if you sell dogs products.

And this is also the suggested use by the W3C: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/Use_h1_for_Title

I am sure that if you have a well structured HTML document, it won't hurt that you don't put everything in h1 tags icon_biggrin

6. mumuri wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 12:09 PM

a h1 tag is for a page not for a site

is the HTML element for the first-level heading of a document.

more over, even if you don't know what search engines really do, you can do tests to see your rank, and , you will see the result in your stats .

an other thing, i didn't say to put all in h1 tags , but only the title of the current page, the website name is in a h1 tags only on the main page on my websites.

7. mumuri wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 12:10 PM

oups ! i put a H1 tags in my post ^^

8. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 12:46 PM

Well, a HTML page is a HTML document. If you think only because it has some layout and navigation ASO the document is only a part of the HTML that you deliver, I think you are mislead.

9. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 12:50 PM

BTW: They also say Google doen't like parameter urls and you have to have short urls - I have a site without short URLs (I was too lazy to persuade Pagesetter) and for the interesting keywords I am always within the Top 10 - so don't take everything for a law, you read online.

1. Nobody but the Google guys knows what's really important.
2. Some of the stuff you read is outdated.

I wouldn't use too many hx-tags on my sites. Mark only the important stuff with hx - and I believe the level of x isn't important. I for example don't mark block titles hx - blocks are not important part of the content.

10. Simon wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 02:58 PM

QuoteThey also say Google doen't like parameter urls and you have to have short urls

My evidence also points to this being wrong. I use shortURLs, not for SEO but for my site visitors.

11. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 04:16 PM

What for? For them to memorize the URL and then type it in? ShortURLs become really interesting when you can remove parts of the URL and then end up one level up:

example.com/news/my-news-item = Article
example.com/news/ = News list

even better:
example.com/news/rss = news list rss feed

Does .8 work like this?

12. come wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 04:40 PM

I totally agree with mumuri on this one.
h1 is for the website name on the main page and for the first important content header on every other page. This will in many people's experience get the best results within search engine rankings (of course only combined with personalized title tag, meta description and carefully crafted content).

As stated by google officials the google bot will index the first level of parameter urls but will not follow to any deeper levels.
If you have a parameter URL on your main site to your forum only the main forum overview will be indexed but no specific thread pages.
The mentioned intent for this behavior is to prevent the bot getting stuck in endlessly generated content spam sites.

13. Simon wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 04:41 PM

QuoteDoes .8 work like this?

Simply put, yes. Also, if you don't like the way a particular module's URLs are constructed you can add custom decode and encode methods (I've already done that on my site with some modules).

In the news module, you can format the URL through the admin interface using a number of variables such as the title, date, story id and so on.

14. mumuri wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 06:13 PM

QuoteBTW: They also say Google doen't like parameter urls and you have to have short urls - I have a site without short URLs (I was too lazy to persuade Pagesetter) and for the interesting keywords I am always within the Top 10 - so don't take everything for a law, you read online.

did you try with or without ? you can't say that's it's the same if you didn't try both methods .

for my first post, sorry about my english, but

the first sentence was from me to say that the H1 tags is dedicated to a page not to a site

the second sentence was a quote for the w3 link you give us to prove what i was saying

15. czardogs wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 10:02 PM

I have many PN websites and I can concur that the ones without short urls do just as well if not better than those with. Every new PN website I make now, I do not bother activating the short urls.

The big three search engines have no problem with PostNuke generated parameter urls.

16. czardogs wrote on Nov 23, 2007 at 10:06 PM

Oops - I should have added it would be nice to have total control over the URL which doesn't yet exist with PN. i.e. - mywebsite.com/article-specific-url.html

That gives the extra little bit for seo, but as long as you strive to make the rest of the page properly seo'd without that, I find the website and content does just fine. icon_biggrin

17. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 24, 2007 at 09:26 AM

I simply don't believe that Google can only index you page if you fake that they are all static. Static HTML pages are not a quality feature.

My example is this: Idrive a site about sightseeing in my town, Kiel. If you ask google for sightseeing in Kiel you find my site on the forth place with this URL:
http://kiel.von-seiner-schoenen-seite.de/index.php?module=Pagesetter&func=view&tid=3&filter=category:sub:1

In my experience 95% of your ranking is related to 3 things:
1) Good Content
2) Good Content
3) HTML that makes it easy for a search engine to find out what the content is.

Everything else might matter or might not matter. Nobody really knows. And if some Google guy says something that is like the Pope says something about Gods will: It might be true or it might be political...

@come: If you say you get best results with 2 h1 headlines - does that mean, you tested both? I don't think that is possible, because while you change your site 1 Mio other webmasters change their sites and google mixes everything up again.

IMHO there is far too much speculation in SEO to be anything near scientific and a guideline for PostNuke development. We should concentrate on producing well structured, meaningful output. And if the W3C says, that a set of pages has a common h1 title that can only mean to me, that this is the Site's name and slogan. If you take this title and combine it with the first h2 in the title tag you have enough food for spiders on you page. And you also have a meaningful HTML document.

18. mumuri wrote on Nov 24, 2007 at 12:34 PM

Quotehttp://www.google.de/search?q=sehensw%C3%BCrdigkeiten+kiel

the two links before you, are rewrited icon_smile

Quote1) Good Content
2) Good Content
3) HTML that makes it easy for a search engine to find out what the content is.

i totally agree with you, good content is the most important thing

Quote
hat can only mean to me, that this is the Site's name and slogan

why ? you re not allowed to speak about more than one subject on your site ? they are talking about a "set of pages" not about a website.

19. kaffeeringe.de wrote on Nov 24, 2007 at 12:40 PM

All of the ones behind me are also rewritten icon_wink

20. ljvd wrote on Dec 11, 2007 at 10:45 PM

it's a very good introduction.
Some modules define specific CSS tags and it's difficult to manage with third party templates.
Of course, i'm for Human One rights icon_wink

21. Lobos wrote on Dec 20, 2007 at 11:19 PM

the system I am working on has urls like this:

http://www.mysite.com/?1/news/world/sprot/rugby

The only important thing is the ?1

this will work:
http://www.mysite.com/?1

The same. So if you happen to change the title of an article, you will not lose the SE page as it will still exist. eg see how I spelled sport wrong? Well the URL will resolve to the same place:

http://www.mysite.com/?1/news/world/sport/rugby

Because the everything after the id is not important.

-Lobos

22. Lobos wrote on Dec 20, 2007 at 11:20 PM

Merry xmas BTW icon_smile

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