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There are plenty of people who do theming.. I had read your request. But you really offered no perspective of what you wanted. I believe if you were more clear about what you wanted, you would have had some response. I am sure even if you opened it back up and stated more clearly your vision you can still get so response.



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-- David Pahl -- (PostNuke Support Team)

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Mbuna,

I'm sure no one here disagrees that PostNuke has been in flux lately, but many would disagree on what that means for PostNuke's future.

I've been using PostNuke for clients and personal uses (and my own business websites) since .726 days.

Granted, .8 is a long time coming...but .764 is light-years ahead of .726 and .8 is a significant leap ahead of .764.

I would not consider .726 to be the same system as .764, and .8 will be a different animal altogether (with the dev team providing EXCELLENT support at upgrading from .764 sites and the old architecture).

As for other CMS systems - I've set up sites in Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress, OScommerce, and more. Templating is a part of every one of these. I've even used Smarty outside of Postnukes Xanthia implementation, and many other frameworks / projects use Smarty templates, too.

They all use templating to some degree - not the exact flavor of PostNuke, but they do.

Most competent web designers (not graphic artists) should be well-versed in creating templated systems. The only thing they'd need is a "base" template to start from - such as xExtralite (the Xanthia version) or a minimal theme. Then, they can see the structure and the tags necessary to put in their HTML code.

If they can't figure this out, then they're not web developer or web designer -they're merely a pretty picture painter (graphic artists are great, but if that's all they can do, they're not truly a web designer)

As for custom module development, I think this has been lacking some. I've done some, but only as time permits, and most of the core devs have their hands full with personal modules they maintain. Others who do it on a more commercial basis are usually doing larger projects or already have a customer base that keeps them busy (AFAIK).
So, those versed in PostNuke are busy...which tends to make me believe their skills and knowledge are valued (PostNuke or otherwise) and therefore I respect their decision to use/code for PostNuke.

Personally, I keep coming back to PostNuke because once a site is in it, I know that I can expand and build on the framework (especially so in the .764 and .8 strains). Joomla, mambo, drupal and more have their strengths, but PostNuke is on a solid foundation that a competent webmaster / hobby coder can tweak to their hearts delight.

What exactly are you looking for that you've not been able to source? Updating a theme? Custom modules? Upgrading versions? There does need to be connection between users / for-hire-coders more...perhaps with the new name, I'll jump into that more myself - but I find my time is fully-loaded with request from current and incoming customers who want more and mroe on their PostNuke sites and I can deliver.

Others, with other CMS systems, I sometimes have to turn away because they're requests are not compatible or have outgrown the CMS they're in (or the architecture of it would make their custom components a nightmare to maintain and keep up-to-date)..

As for waiting for .8 ... why? You can do in .764 almost everything you can do in .8, and modules .764 will work in .800

The only super-benefit is for the nicer admin functions, the code enhancements and for developers, the great Util classes that make module creation so much easier.

Whatever you do, good luck, and if you need assistance with PostNuke, I do custom code, upgrades and more if you can schedule something a few weeks down the road (as I'm knee deep now ).

NCM
SwitchBit / UHEweb

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Granted, .8 is a long time coming...but .764 is light-years ahead of .726 and .8 is a significant leap ahead of .764.

I would not consider .726 to be the same system as .764, and .8 will be a different animal altogether (with the dev team providing EXCELLENT support at upgrading from .764 sites and the old architecture).

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Each release is very different and every release from my initial installation has broken 3rd party modules. So I end up spending hours tracking down fixes for modules that no longer work.

The core of PostNuke has pretty much always worked, but any enhancements are hit or miss. I've had custom modules written, where I've spent thousands on them and then upgraded the core only to find that PostNuke changed something and the modules no longer worked. Then I've had to spend tens of hours remediating the modules. This cannot happen if you want people to continue to use the product.

I'm sure there are a handful of people who are skilled with PostNuke, the problem is that it's only a handful. I posted an elance request last month looking for someone to fix/enhance one of my customer PostNuke modules. It was posted for a month and I got 8 replies from companies. Not one had any PostNuke experience. However each had mambo, joomla, drupal experience.

My biggest concern is that it's too little too late for PostNuke. .8 has taken too long to get here. Development on .7x days is too hard, so you've lost the 3rd party developers. Support has been lacking due to people being busy. Third party modules have waned. All of this has led to people moving to other products.

.8 may be the greatest CMS ever, but is it too late now? Has the moment swung to other products and we'll never get it back to PostNuke?

History has shown this to use. Think of Netware, OS2, etc. Arquable all superior products that lost out to inferior products. It can happen to PostNuke and will happen if there is no commitment to get a production release out and available, AND support a third party community.

Just my .03 cents.






edited by: mbuna, Jan 09, 2008 - 01:50 AM

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http://www.Aquaria.info --> 30k user PostNuke site
http://www.EngineSubmittal.com -- Free search engine submission

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Each release is very different and every release from my initial installation has broken 3rd party modules. So I end up spending hours tracking down fixes for modules that no longer work.

Only very badly modules - I still have a few that I'm using from .726 days that were coded fairly well and still work fine(with a few very minor general PHP problems that needed to be fixed, just as all PHP coding needs updating every so often). Everything else I've been able to replace with newer modules, or simply using pnRender / Xanthia plugins which only take a few minutes to write.

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The core of PostNuke has pretty much always worked, but any enhancements are hit or miss. I've had custom modules written, where I've spent thousands on them and then upgraded the core only to find that PostNuke changed something and the modules no longer worked.

There are generally 2 situations where this is a problem:
1.modules that do not follow PN API guidelines - They use custom methods to access PN tables and such, and so when the CORE changes, they break. If API calls were used, Devs have made it very easy to keep code maintainable.
2. Module was really a hack or bridge to other PHP scripts. They dial directly into the PN DB tables instead of using API and break, or the underlying PHP is aging and not updated.

I've always specified to a client that modules should be API compatible, helping to guarantee compatibility. Lazy programming leads to broken modules, and the devs are not responsible to maintain bad 3rd party code, or make accommodations for it. There has been some talk about "certified" modules and how to identify and show to users which modules are coded properly and should be better long term. Moving from .726 to .750 and now .764 culled a lot of badly coded 3rd party modules...it hurt, but replacements are usually coded that are better. pnRender plugins are easily coded and updated to replace minor block functionalities (that old, phpnuke type blocks often were used for).

Despite it all, PostNuke has evolved into a great codebase while phpnuke and other derivates are still struggling to be free of legacy code. The base is a great place to start, newname and .8 will be deep, luscious powder on the mountainside (can you tell its ski season here? )

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I'm sure there are a handful of people who are skilled with PostNuke, the problem is that it's only a handful.

As per my post above, I disagree with this. Most skilled Postnukers I've found are very competent in PostNuke AND other technologies. They are in demand, and rarely look at bit jobs. I'm fully loaded with clients who want more from PostNuke, clients who know their requirements or let me define them for them and so I know the job will get done and done right. Too many times, I've tried to help with custom modules and the person doesn't state their requirements fully, or expects google-like programming for $100 a project. Overall, do I want to be part of a project that has good coders who create a framework that any competent PHP coder can work with, or one where a 15 yr old kid is coding bad modules with security holes that breaks every release?

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My biggest concern is that it's too little too late for PostNuke. .8 has taken too long to get here. Development on .7x days is too hard, so you've lost the 3rd party developers. Support has been lacking due to people being busy. Third party modules have waned. All of this has led to people moving to other products.

Development is much easier in .764 and especially in .800 IF someone just follows the example module instead of trying a few PHP hacks to force something into PN. The modules I've seen are surpassing everything we had in .726 days - and much better coded and modifyable (templating, etc.)

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.8 may be the greatest CMS ever, but is it too late now? Has the moment swung to other products and we'll never get it back to PostNuke?

This is still in question ... has momentum waned? yes...in the .750 to .760 period. Since .764 and going into .8, I've seen interest building again.

The .8 / newname release will determine the future of PN (but not as PN! lol) I think the devs made a good decision to break from the "nuke" moniker and promote newname as the latest and greatest. Its a different beast, and should have a different name.

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History has shown this to use. Think of Netware, OS2, etc. Arquable all superior products that lost out to inferior products. It can happen to PostNuke and will happen if there is no commitment to get a production release out and available, AND support a third party community.

I don't disagree - The base code is there, superior code and functional framework, now to flesh out the 3rd party mods and help the community and userbase grow.

A couple things:
Jorns new content module is great and fills a void PostNuke has had for building dynamic "semi-static" pages.
Module developement studio looks impressive and will help module developers quickly get a new modules basic structure and code updated. I've also used Openstars module generator to quickly get a custom module going - automatically creates the file structure, templates and basic DB I/O code.
.800 module development is a BREEZE compared to even .764. Its easy to quickly get a module going without having to be a PostNuke pro - the UTIL classes free a developer to concentrate on their logic, not on getting the data in and out of PostNuke.

All your points are valid, and the timing and promotion of .8 and newname will see which way PostNuke's future goes.

Sorry, above post was me.... my login timed out half way through I guess
So it will post as anonymous instead of rejecting the post?

NCM
SwitchBit / UHEweb

So of course I have to ask...

When will .8 be released?
When will the new name be released?

Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous that after 5 years + there still isn't a 1.0 release. And I think this is part of what keeps a lot of people from using the product. They assume that it's still a beta product, even if it is production ready. It might seem like a silly thing, but perception is reality.



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http://www.Aquaria.info --> 30k user PostNuke site
http://www.EngineSubmittal.com -- Free search engine submission

mbuna, While I can respect your frustration, the fact of the mater is, .8 will represent the first point in PostNuke's development cycle where it can legitimately be called a "Beta" release. Up to this point, it's been a known fact that the API, the Theme Engine, and the rest of the underlying structure was in a state of flux. With .8, the API and the Theme system, Work flows etc are in place, the tempo from .8 - 1 will be short I hope, but since these are all volunteers, giving a LOT to the project to get it where it is. There have been set backs that could not be controlled, but things have been moving along fairly well since the current team has been put in place. Most of the other large CMSes have financial backing that I've not seen evidence of for PostNuke.

mbuna

So of course I have to ask...

So do I...
First you're frustated by the fact nobody responded to your post, now I've wrote you an E-Mail and notified you by PM, but no response so far.
I'm sure willing to help and work out a solution for the current stable 0.7.6.4 release which works perfectly fine. Why is everybody keeping on nagging on that 0.8.x release??

- Igor


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Have a nice day

PostNuke.be is currently running
PN 0.8.0.0-RC3

mbuna

So of course I have to ask...

When will .8 be released?
When will the new name be released?

Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous that after 5 years + there still isn't a 1.0 release. And I think this is part of what keeps a lot of people from using the product. They assume that it's still a beta product, even if it is production ready. It might seem like a silly thing, but perception is reality.

As you can read in the news we plan to fix the last important bug this weekend and make the release soon after. The name depends on the legal stuff which is not in our hands. If you know a faster way - please tell us.

IMHO 750 should have been released as .8 - it contained pnRender which was a big step - Everybody would have been happy and we were now about to release .9. With the introduction of gettext and the removal of the PN-prefix we had had a proper $newname 1.0

Well, that is not the way it went. Yet the code is still the same. We have a great templating system. And we are about to release a .8 that as free of legacy as it is possible without completely breaking downward compatibilty.

The real question is: Does PostNuke serve your needs or not? I can implement everything I like with PostNuke.

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best regards from Kiel, sailing city

Steffen Voß

Member of the PostNuke Steering Committee
Visit: Kaffeeringe.de - Internet & Kreativität

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mbuna

So of course I have to ask...

So do I...
First you're frustated by the fact nobody responded to your post, now I've wrote you an E-Mail and notified you by PM, but no response so far.

- Igor

I haven't responded because I'm trying to evaluate whether I want to stick with PostNuke or not. I don't want to sink money into theming or module development until I know what I won't be porting it to another platform.

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The real question is: Does PostNuke serve your needs or not?

You are right, that is the real question. As it stands now it does not because of the lack of support for 3rd party, or custom development. I'm trying to guage if that is going to change or not.

I have $$$$ invested in PN and it will cost me that to port it to another CMS, so I'd rather not leave it. But at the same time I don't want to sink more money into a product that may not have a future.

By no means am I trying to belittle any of your work, I realize you have all sunk your hearts into this product. At the same time I'm sure you can understand our concerns about the future of it.

Thanks,

Sean



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http://www.Aquaria.info --> 30k user PostNuke site
http://www.EngineSubmittal.com -- Free search engine submission

How dod you suggest should we support 3rd party developers?

We have a NOC which gives them the basic infrastucture - for free
We have a module developers list, this forum and a dozen national forums where module developers can directly communicate with core devs.

I think times were worse in the past. It's getting better for 2 years or so and we are really close to a release.

So if you have more ideas - please tell us. And tell us how you would like to help us.

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best regards from Kiel, sailing city

Steffen Voß

Member of the PostNuke Steering Committee
Visit: Kaffeeringe.de - Internet & Kreativität

Steffen,

I think you guys are doing what you can to support them. It's just that they aren't there. Again I mean no disrespect to the PostNuke team. I think you've done a great job of creating an API and the NOC for them. What I meant was lack of support for publishers such as myself in getting 3rd party modules created.

It's now a matter of attracting people to write code for PostNuke. I think it's somewhat of a catch 22. People aren't developing because the user base has shrunk, and the user base has shrunk because there isn't as many add-ons as other CMS's.

I just went through the entire list of modules a few minutes ago. I'm glad to see some new stuff listed there, and I hope that the list continues to grow.

One quick question. If a module is API and pnrender compliant for .764, will it work with .8?





edited by: mbuna, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:10 AM

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http://www.Aquaria.info --> 30k user PostNuke site
http://www.EngineSubmittal.com -- Free search engine submission

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If a module is API and pnrender compliant for .764, will it work with .8?

yes.

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regards from germany
..::[PostNuke CMS]::.. ..::[SEO-Blog]::.. ..::[CMS Sicherheit]::..

kaffeeringe.de

And tell us how you would like to help us.

You tell me how I can help and I will. I've offered in the past but there wasn't much I could do to help since I'm not a PHP developer.

Sean

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http://www.Aquaria.info --> 30k user PostNuke site
http://www.EngineSubmittal.com -- Free search engine submission

mbuna

I haven't responded because I'm trying to evaluate whether I want to stick with PostNuke or not. I don't want to sink money into theming or module development until I know what I won't be porting it to another platform.

Thanks,

Sean

Well, that was the whole idea... evaluating, E-Mailing back with that idea would of been a huge improvement. BTW, I was't thinking in $$$, just sharing ideas, what you have now and what to do about it....

Anyway, the fact you're still posting and not abandon gives me the idea that deepdown, you still believe in the project

Sorry if you had the impression nobody cared, but my experience so far learned me I was always too late... maybe I'm not alone, some ppl might think 'oh well, somebody must of have responded by now'...

- Igor


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Have a nice day

PostNuke.be is currently running
PN 0.8.0.0-RC3